Reconciliation Is a Journey: Stories from the Frontlines

Adrian Jacobs and Cindy Stover join us in this episode to explore Hearts Exchanged, an eight-month learning journey fostering reconciliation between Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities. Discover how participants deepen understanding through storytelling, on-the-land learning, and group reflection, turning education into action and building lasting relationships rooted in justice and respect.

The following is a transcript of Season 9 Episode 2 of the Do Justice podcast.  It has been lightly edited for clarity.  Listen and subscribe on your favourite listening app.  

"I'm Evelyn Bowman and I'm from Willoughby Church in Langley, B.C. Spending the time together reflecting on the things we had read about and watched on videos, etc., but spending the time and hearing each others' responses to what we had learned and just hearing different lenses in and sharing personal reactions to, to all of that that we were learning, that was really a good thing to do—to do it with a group, and it was good that it was a small group, because you had to go, you had committed. So once you were there there was a framework for it and everybody—there was an order, a participation to it all. And it was just really good to know that there were some place where we could connect because we have a similar history and background. So there were some shared understandings there, or misunderstandings if I may say that. Yeah, it was really good to do that with a group."

Chris: Well, hello friends, and welcome to another episode of Do Justice. My name is Chris Orme and joining me today, we have two guests. As we continue our conversations around the cohorts and communities of practice with various focuses, today we're going to be talking about the practice of reconciliation with Indigenous siblings here in Canada and throughout North America. Joining me today is Adrian Jacobs Ganosono of the Turtle Clan, Cayuga Nation of the Six Nations Haudenosaunee Confederacy at Grand River Territory, Ontario. Adrian is the father of five and grandfather of three grandsons and one granddaughter. He lives on the Dish with One Spoon Territory as the CRC's Senior Leader for Indigenous Justice and Reconciliation. We're also excited to have Cindy Stover with us today. Cindy is the Justice Mobilization Program Manager of the Christian Reformed Church in Canada. Having grown up in Northern Ontario, she's a country girl at heart but also loves her close-knit neighborhood in downtown Hamilton, where she is part of a church plant. She is a daughter and an auntie and loves hanging out in her garden with her two cats. Welcome, Adrian and Cindy, thanks for joining us today.

Adrian: It's good to be with you, Chris.

Cindy: Good to be here, thanks so much.

Chris: Cindy, what is Hearts Exchanged?

Cindy: So, Hearts Exchanged is a learning journey that was designed within the CRC's Indigenous Ministry Team focused on supporting Reformed Christians to learn more about reconciliation and how to be in good relationship with Indigenous neighbours. This is something that was developed by a team of folks within Indigenous Ministry and definitely led by Indigenous staff as well as other staff that are allies just learning and offering their gifts to help build out this learning experience. The intent of Hearts Exchanged really is that when a community does this, whether it's an actual church that forms an in-person cohort or they're going to learn together for the next eight months in their local community, or whether it's a regional group—we have one happening this year that's all of Western Canada, another one that's all of Eastern Canada—those are online groups, obviously [laughs]--the intent is that those folks just enter into dialogue with one another and go through this discipling process of learning and unlearning so that they can really consider what it means to be ambassadors of reconciliation as we see in Corinthians but also to understand this current context in Canada where so much is coming to light about the harms and honest, atrocities, that happened between the relationship of Canada and Indigenous peoples. We need to know what to do with that as Christians but also as Canadians and how to respond in ways that are gracious, respectful, and are making space for rebuilt relationships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people.

Chris: So, Adrian, from your perspective, could you tell us about the importance of Hearts Exchanged?

Adrian: I've worked quite extensively in various churches in Canada and the United States and I've connected with Indigenous people from around the world and I am really impressed with the Hearts Exchanged program that really comes out of the Truth and Reconciliation's Calls to Action especially for churches to educate themselves about issues that arise from colonialism in the residential school era and all of the damages that happened to indigenous communities—the loss of language and connection to the land, etc. And the program of Hearts Exchanged, eight months of two to three hours, perhaps even more, a month of education on Indigenous issues beginning with Indigenous creation stories and going through the Doctrine of Discovery and UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People and many other issues, followed by a two hour cohort reflection time over those eight months is very extensive in terms of having a good, complete curriculum. We really owe the ones who worked on the curriculum a great debt of gratitude because many people have been through the program or are in it now and it's significant to say that this denomination has made some big progress in terms of educating their own people concerning these matters. The hundreds of people that have been a part of the program, whenever I talk to other communities from other denominations, they want to get it on the action. They want to be a part of what is going on. So I think that the Christian Reformed Church is a leading actor in this area of pursuing justice here in Canada.

Chris: I want to talk about these, the community of practice cohorts and the one that's specifically attached to your work—can you tell us a bit about it?

Cindy: We now have had, as of this year (our fifth year doing Hearts Exchanged), about 650 people in Canada go through this Hearts Exchanged learning journey, which is astounding on its own. I don't know that that many people have done anything in the same direction [laughs] in the CRC in Canada before, so that's something that we are really excited about and really proud of. But we also find people go through this eight-month learning journey—and again, we call it a "learning and action journey," it's not about just sitting and learning and filling up your head with knowledge and then reconciliation is accomplished, check mark, I'm done. But the idea is really to transform people's mindsets and then out of that some level of action or next steps on a journey will come, right? Because we're not going to solve everything in the eight months that people spend in Hearts Exchanged. And so we've heard from a number of communities who've done the Hearts Exchanged program that they want some more support in figuring out their next steps. They want to be in relationship with the CRC's Indigenous Ministry as they go into their next steps, which is understandable. There are groups, too, who have been doing this work for a long time and are very well equipped to figure out their next steps on their own, too, and we are happy to just come alongside them. But essentially we, as part of all the cohort learning that has been going on in the Christian Reformed Church, we realized that this was a great opportunity to continue that support for those who have finished Hearts Exchanged and just want to be in relationship with us as they go onto their next steps. We've chosen to call it Communities of Practice because we want to be very clear this is about practicing, it's active, but also we already call the Hearts Exchanged program cohorts and we didn't want to confuse people, to be honest [laughs]. So that's why we came up with an overall new concept and communities of practice are not in and of themselves a new concept, it's a very regular type of learning that different organizations have gone through for many, many years so we're just operating out of that same ethic, essentially. That it's a group that comes together, the idea is that it's three or more churches that have a few people in them who have done Hearts Exchanged. Those people come together and do some peer-to-peer learning and especially share best practices, share some of the stories of what they've been experiencing in their local communities, but at the same time knowing that each local community's going to be different. It's going to be very different for a church in British Columbia on the coast then it is for a church that's in the Okenagan Valley in B.C. You know, it's going to be very different for a church in Halifax than it is for a church in Waterloo. So we're wanting to support them in their local context and to figure out what is best for them to do, next steps toward reconciliation. And to honestly just build respectful relationships with Indigenous people in those local communities. So, in one place that might look like a group gets together and does a book study where they learn more about a particular Indigenous community that is close to them. Or maybe they decide, you know, there's one group that's already connecting with an Indigenous healing lodge in their town and so they're working hard to build better relationships with that community service and that's what makes sense for them. In other communities it might be different. So that's what we're hoping to do, is simply bring some of these congregations together, help them sort of formalize the next year or two of their reconciliation journey, offer supports and advice as needed, but really just be alongside them as they're figuring out what is best to do in their local contexts.

Chris: I would like to hear more about, what are some of the outcomes from this type of learning experience?

Adrian: One of the things that I have noticed with a lot of people is that they have never heard anything of the story. They did not know, other than maybe a cursory knowledge of the term Indian Residential School or Residential Schools. But to actually learn what happened in the schools, the policies that were enacted there, the founders of that kind of process and their attitudes and the quotes that we come across, it's a completely new thing for them. I've worked in communities exactly right outside of reserves. So, on one side of the road is a reserve, on the other side is a non-Indigenous community and the people across the road had never heard the stories of the residential schools or the kinds of things that the community, Indigenous community, has been through. So, surprise is a big reaction for a lot of people and we have discussion questions throughout Hearts Exchanged work and you hear that over and over again, people react with surprise, they react with shame, they react with anger, thinking "How could we have possibly done this kind of thing?" Or, "I was completely unaware of this happening." So I think that there's been kind of a growing understanding of the extent of the damage that happened in the Indigenous communities through these various actions, not only the Indian residential school process, but in the colonial process in general and really when other peoples' language and education system and systems of government, etc., are imposed on our Indigenous communities, there was tremendous harm. A lot of self-doubt was sown into a lot of people. A lot of separation and loss. And that kind of trauma has affected communities in such a way that it's an ongoing issue to deal with, because trauma, as we know even from a medical standpoint, is intergenerational in nature. What happens to one generation gets passed on in the next generation and following, as well. It took a long time to have this damage enacted, it'll take a long time to repair the damage, as well. So I think that this is a good way to move people forward in becoming allies and empathetic to the situation with Indigenous folk.

Chris: Yeah, thanks for filling that picture out a little bit. I went to—I did the learning through Hearts Exchanged a couple of years ago, or a year ago, and that—what you described was kind of my arc, as well. I had a very surface knowledge of the history, but it gave me an understanding and a way forward.

"I'm Susan MacLarkey. I am a member here at Meadowlands Fellowship Christian Reformed Church. I think there were seventeen of us, in all, who, as much as we could, covenanted to meet once a month. Now, we didn't share all kinds of brilliant ideas, we shared a lot of questions, we shared a lot of challenges. We were all on a journey and we've all been changed, including myself. We don't have answers, but we have a desire to continue to learn—and the wonderful thing is—together. This has created a sort of family within the larger congregation and yet this family, we want to reach out and bring others in.

Chris: I want to talk about the Community of Practice cohorts doing on-the-land learning. You're encouraging this as part of those Communities of Practice. What is on-the-land learning and why do you recommend it?

Adrian: Even within the Hearts Exchanged program, we have something called "walk and talk," where people can either do it alone or with a partner or with a whole group of people to go out onto the land and to think about some of the issues of the land. Who was there? What did the land mean to people? And learning the story of the land. That has been a transformative thing for many people and in our approach to helping people move along the road of reconciliation, Justice Murray Sinclair talked about the idea that it's a journey, it's a journey up a mountain and it's a long way to go. It's a lot of effort. You have to be prepared for making some mistakes, falling down, maybe even hurting your knee or something as you fall, in efforts to pursue reconciliation. And so, the idea that a lot of people have from this Hearts Exchanged program is: what do we do next? We have a reconciliation action plan where individuals are thinking about: now that I know this, where is my journey taking me? What is the next step for me? So part of that was the idea of Communities of Practice, where Hearts Exchanged alumni from three churches or so could get together, a couple of representatives from each church, and begin to talk about our wider journey of connection to their local Indigenous community. What can we do? Some people have worked together to bring in Jonathan Maracle to have a concert in his own home community. And we're thinking about various parts of the country doing book studies together and having a larger group of interested people. So that's where that idea of continuing the journey past the initial eight-month learning journey of Hearts Exchanged. I have found that in bringing people to the land and talking about issues right under their feet is really transformative as well. Last fall we brought a number of people together to the property that I have at Six Nations and we talked about Gypsum mining and the implications of the Doctrine of Discovery there and then the injustice that was enacted upon Indigenous people and how the environment was affected by the development in Southern Ontario and the mining, etc., and how the Indigenous people are doing their best to take care of the land and even the animals know that the Indigenous people are doing that because that's where they're retreating to. They're leaving the developmental areas and retreating to the Six Nations community. And so those kinds of opportunities to be on the land and hear the story from the people of the land is very transformative. People begin to think differently about what is happening, or what has happened. Even the land conflict in Caledonia, we had an opportunity to talk about that on the land and refer to events that were happening on the land and so walking on the land and telling those stories helps people to put into context that this is not just an historical thing, even though the last residential school was closed in 1996. It's still happening today. When we are looking at this idea of follow-up, on-the-land learning seems to have such an impact on people. They go away thinking about it and talking about it, even months and a whole year later.

Chris: So if there are folks listening to this and they want to get involved, where do they find the information required? How can folks connect with you to get on board in this or to come alongside of the work that you're doing and take this up in their local congregation?

Cindy: Yeah, for sure. So, if you're a group that has already done Hearts Exchanged you probably already have my contact info but if you're not sure where to start, absolutely, just go to the Indigenous Ministry website of the CRCNA (I'm sure that will be linked in the show notes) and you can learn more about the Communities of Practice there and will find our contact information. But I also just wanted to be clear for those who may not have done Hearts Exchanged but are deeply engaged in building relationships with Indigenous neighbors, you are also welcome to be part of these cohorts. It's not like Hearts Exchanged is a prerequisite. In fact, I think we really do need to connect with those who have long-standing, positive relationships and have been doing this work much longer than we have. So, definitely do not be dissuaded if you've never heard of Hearts Exchanged but you're still interested in this. Definitely get in touch, and we would love to hear from you.

Chris: Adrian, Cindy, thank you both for spending time with us today.

Chris: Cindy, can you tell us a little bit about what Hearts Exchanged is all about? No, I don't like that, that's dumb. That's a dumb question. That's silly. A little bit about about? [exaggerated Canadian accent] About about? Canada! [laughs]

Cindy: [laughs] Do we have a blooper reel? 'Cause that should be on it. 

Helpful Links

Hearts Exchanged: ⁠https://www.crcna.org/hearts-exchanged⁠