“These Walls of Bitterness Must Be Broken”

In 1995, Jonathan Maracle, a Mohawk from Tyendinaga Territory in Ontario, Canada, decided not to sing Amazing Grace at the Sacred Assembly in Ottawa, as he had been asked. What he didn’t know was that listening to the Spirit in that moment would inspire a band and ministry that would shape the rest of his life [and the church.]

The following is a transcript of Season 5 Episode 2 of the Do Justice podcast.  It has been lightly edited for clarity.  Listen and subscribe on your favourite listening app.  

Chris: Well, hello, friends. Welcome to another episode of Do Justice. I’m your host, Chris Orme. And today we got a treat for you. We have a treat for you dear listener. There's some stuff happening and we have people here who are in the middle of that stuff. And we're gonna get into it today with a good friend of Christian Reformed Church, good friend of the Hearts Exchanged program and the Office of Social Justice. We’re privileged to be joined today by Jonathan Maracle. Jonathan, thanks for joining us today.

Jonathan: I'm honored to be here. Thanks for inviting me. 

Chris: I'd love it if you would start our time. Tell us who you are. I mean a lot of us are fans and followers of yours, but I would love to hear it from you. I could read a Wikipedia bio and I can read stuff off of your website, but I'd love to hear from you. Tell us who you are. 

Jonathan: Who am I? That's a good question. And we ask that a lot when we travel. Who am I? Because I only discovered who I really am when I turned 40. So when I turned 30 I found Jesus, and when I found Jesus felt as though all the answers were there; everything came to me.

But as I delved deeper in Jesus, and delved deeper into his understanding, his love is brotherhood, the way he gave me confidence and I didn't feel alone anymore—I mean, I thought I had found everything. And then I realized that there was something missing, that was really missing in my life. And it was the fact that I was born Welsh, Scottish, and Irish and a little bit of English, and mostly Mohawk. I grew up in Mohawk communities, dark skinned people. And the struggle was to try and fit in, and so I didn't like who I was. 

So you said who am I? Well, I’m a  Mohawk, who has Scottish, English, Irish, and Welsh blood and wished at the time that none of that was a part of me, because I was ashamed of it. So I grew up in this dark skin community, with dark skinned people, spoke the language, and was always ashamed of the way I looked: my white skin and blue eyes if you can't tell. 

And I didn't know who I was. And I literally hated that part of me. And in 1985 God called me to Jesus. I came to Christ in 1985. And so my first pastor said to me, “you have to give up being Mohawk in order to have Jesus. You have to give up your culture in order to have Jesus. And in 1985, I had no idea any better than to listen to him, because he was my pathway to God, so to speak, as a pastor. He was my leader. And I had fallen hopelessly in love with Jesus. And his love set me free from addiction and set me free from all kinds of things.

It's a big answer for me to tell you who I am, because I was committed to finding Jesus in all that I could find. And when he told me I had to give up being who I was created to be, I didn't understand. And it broke my heart, and it made me angry, and I didn't understand it. But if there's anything I learned with religion, I just needed to accept it, swallow it, and try to be a good culturally-converted Christian. And so you know I went on a path for 10 years of being the Native worship leader who didn't sing anything native, and didn't use any drums. I just did all the integrity Hosanna, and the Maranatha, and you know all the different songs.

And there I was, coming from a Native reservation, going out and leading white folks in music. And the special thing about me was that I had Native blood. But never embraced it. 

So I guess the “who am I” happened when I was in Rapid City, South Dakota. I looked in a mirror. And I was going out to speak to three about four hundred people. And I was getting ready, fixing my makeup and doing my hair and stuff. And again, I looked in the mirror as usual and I didn't like what I saw. I just never liked the fact that I was not—here I am called to go out and do work with Native people, and they call me Native, and I look like a white guy.

So I was upset about it. That day I looked in the mirror, and here I was upset again, and I was kind of like a little more upset, for whatever reason, than usual, because it was more dark skinned people out in the crowd than usual. So I was embarrassed. And Holy Spirit came to me that day and just said, “see yourself as I see you. I see you as my son.” 

And I’m telling you, I could start crying right now. Every time I tell the story, I could cry at it because the change was so profound. I had it just wash over me. It was like being born again again. And I was not ashamed of any of it—the blue eyes, the white skin, the Welsh, the whole thing. All made sense to me, that God loves all of us. It just happened. It was a beautiful thing. 

So I went out and I told everybody, maybe later on in this story I'll tell you what happened at the other end of that. But it was really really awesome. But God has a sense of humor, and he pulled me through that knothole, because I was stuck in the middle of it. You can almost see my legs on one side, my arms, and the other! That day he pulled me through you know and I've never been the same. 

And from that time on—I was about 40 years old—ministry really took a new swing for me.

A new revelation. At that time I really embraced my Native heritage, and became the only Christian that people knew who would dare play a drum in a Christian setting. And I got thrown out of churches and got pushed away from people that were once my friends as Christians turned away from me because I was going in a “pagan direction.” 

But I didn't feel anything pagan about it. And God assured me that I was moving along, and it was one at a time that I had to work my way through it.

So yeah. So ok, I was born in Akwesasne territory, near Cornwall and Massena, New York and Quebec border. So that's where I grew up as a boy. The language was strong in our community.  Everybody was very, very Mohawk. And that's where the birthing of the not wanting to have the white skin and all took place. And now I live in Tyendinaga, Mohawk Territory.  My father, his name is “Ka ron yak da dyeah ” which means “along the heavens.” And my mother was Gajeetjahaway (phonetic), which means “carrying flowers.” 

And between the two of them they apostled 13 churches. And I was born in Akwesasne, while they were ministering to the Mohawk people, and had outreaches to the Algonquin, Crees, and Ojibwe that would come to our area. And Dad would throw big camp meetings every year. And you know I was always surrounded by First Nations people. And so I ran away from it for almost 30 years. And then, when I came back, I realized I was called back to my people to see them restored, to see them be able to embrace who he created them to be, to see all of this begin to take place under my watch that God has given.

Chris: thank you for that picture. You know, like I said, I could read the Wikipedia page, and I could read the bio from your website, but I think it means a lot: the honesty that you just exude all the time.

I've been a fan and a follower of yours for a while and one thing that I'm struck with is that you are a fiercely humble man. And so for our listeners, I also want to just add, Jonathan—if you don't know his work—he is an incredibly talented singer, songwriter, musician. I want to say you're a poet and a prophet on top of that, too. And I want to…Our season with the podcast for this time, we were talking about the intersection of justice and worship. That's our concern. And we were privileged to talk to Dr. Kenny Wallace. I’m sure you know Kenny. And Kenny gave you a shout out. As you know, I asked Kenny, “what was the big aha moment for you?” and he actually gave you a shout out and said, “You know one time Jonathan was leading us, and there was just this: the spirit of God was there and stuff started happening.”

But you're a musician. You're an artist. I wanna know about Broken Walls, cause that's a really unique story. Tell us about when Broken Walls was conceived in 1995, right?

So. Yeah. Tell us that story. 

Jonathan: Well, it all started with Elijah Harper. So. he was a friend of my father's. My father was an elder when Elijah was a member of Parliament. And Elijah would use my father for advice and for guidance from the old mind, because my father was considered—during his reign I suppose you'd say—he was considered a native who lived with the old mind. He understood the old people, the ancestors, and he carried the message of the seven generations forward.

So Elijah knew my dad very well, and because of that I had made a trip with Dad to Parliament and Elijah’s office. And Elijah wanted to talk to Dad about what he wanted to do. Because, you know, back in that time the suicide and the family dysfunction and the health issues and all the things that have so scarred our native people were weighing really heavy on Elijah’s heart. Elijah was a man who really took the office that he had to a place where he wanted to help his people. And it wasn't just about him being a leader being in a political position. And so many of these guys, to me, are in political positions because they crave power. I think that Elijah was in that position to save his people. And that's a really important thing to remember.

And the other person that I think on, maybe three  generations prior was Crazy Horse, who—you can guide me back to what you asked in the earlier question but I want to make this parallel for you. Crazy Horse was probably one of the greatest leaders of the native people.

You know it's a name that everybody's heard. He was profound. He was different than anybody else in that he never craved leadership. He never sought after it. He never, you know, competed for a position of leadership. He just did what he had to do for his people, just kind of like you guys are doing. He went out there and he's doing things to help his people to move forward. And you know if the elders needed help, he would go out and do what he needed to do. 

And you know he didn't even raise a party to do all these things. He would just do it. People would observe him doing it, and people were drawn to the fact of how he responded to the need. So whenever they went to battle, Crazy Horse didn't go and rally the troops and go out there and jump on his war pony and scream and holler. He would get on his horse and he would ride around the community, just ride around the outside of the community to say, basically, “if anybody wants to come with me, I'm going to kick some butt. I'm going to fight the enemy against our people.” And he would just ride around. And you know, within two or three rides around the village he'd have 800 warriors ready to go and give their lives for him in battle.

This was the kind of man Crazy Horse was. And I believe that this is a type of man Elijah Harper was. He was standing on the front line, and he made this call, and his call was: we need to get the spiritual people of Canada, the true spiritual leaders of Canada, to come together. And we need to get them to come and we need to have a think tank, and we need to figure out how we can stop suicide, the family dysfunction, health problems, the alcohol issues, the broken spirits of the First Nations people. Because literally, that's what we face: broken spirits of people who should be able to be proud of who they are, but who have been pushed into the corner and hidden from society, because people—because Canada—was ashamed of us. But what they're really ashamed of is what they did to us, really. 

So anyway. So Elijah Harper made this call, and at the time I was just your—like I was explaining to you earlier—I was a musician. And I played all the current songs of the land. And was just involved in it.

And everything happened in 1995, where I got a call from Richard Twist. I got a call from Adrian Jacobs. And I got a call from the March for Jesus. It all happened in ‘95. And it was at the same time when Elijah Harper called me to the Sacred Assembly.

So everything was coming to a supernatural or spiritual head. And when he called me, fortunately, other people had been talking to me about, maybe I should start playing the drum.Maybe I needed to reconsider how I'm presenting my worship, and doing it from a native perspective. So that our people could become proud of the fact that perhaps God loved us the way He created us right.

So I got a call from Rudy and Marnie Poll from Ottawa, who were the organizers for the Sacred Assembly. And they asked me if I would come and play my drum and sing Amazing Grace in Mohawk. So that was the opening question.

And you know as a musician I'd never played drum in church. Never. That was just because of what my pastor said to me ten years before. I never took my native heritage to church with me.  It always stayed home, you know. It was still at home when I came home. I would play the drum in my private time. I would play it with my brothers. I would sing the native songs in my private times, but whenever I went into the Christian community or into the outer world it was like I had to be another person. 

And so they called me, and they said, “will you sing Amazing Grace and Mohawk on a drum?” And I kind of thought about it, because “what are they doing asking me this” is the question that came up in my spirit.

And so I said, Yeah, yeah, I'll do it and it was mainly because—I'll tell you the thing that drew me the most—was the people that were going to be there. There was all these like super spiritual native leaders and non-native leaders who were coming from all across Canada. I mean, you know, there was Midewiwinho who are the Ojibwe religious leaders. There were, you know, Haudenosaunee. There were all different kinds of spiritual leaders, not just Christian, which was another thing that really perplexed me, because how could they bring those people into the same room together? You know? That's kind of like the confusion that I was having. 

But I went, and I took my drum and the night that I was supposed to sing Amazing Grace in Mohawk—of course I’d practiced it and knew what I was doing—but still it felt a little weird. But I knew I could do a great job, so I was really excited to sing it.

And so John Sanford was the elder who was speaking the night that I was there to sing Amazing Grace in Mohawk. And I would say, there was between four and seven hundred people in the room, a pretty big room at the—what do they call it? The Palais Des Congres or something in Hull. This is where it was being held.

So John Sandford was speaking about the atrocities committed against the Indigenous people of the world. And he said, “the indigenous people of the world have walls of bitterness that have been built within their hearts because of the treatment they received during the colonial exploits of the settlers that have come to their lands.” And he said, “these walls of bitterness must be broken.”

And when he said that, I mean that just—man! That just hit me, my spirit. And I sat there. I got to say, as I sat there of course—I have always, always, everywhere I go I have a notebook. So I had my notebook sitting there. And he said, these walls of bitterness must be broken. And I wrote the song, Broken Walls right at that moment.

Chris: wow.

Jonathan: So within 10 minutes, I have this song done. And in that same 10 minutes, coincidentally, he was finished teaching his message, which was about love, and how we need to listen to the stories of Indigenous people. And he went on with that, and I just wrote the song Broken Walls. And when he finished, the leaders went up, took the microphone and invited me up to sing Amazing Grace. 

And so I went up, with my drum in hand and my spirit infused with the Holy Spirit, my flesh shaking. You know, my flesh was really reacting in fear and my spirit was reacting with war. You know, like just with this “I have to do this” kind of feeling.

Chris: Wow! 

Jonathan: The flesh just didn't want to do it. My flesh was kind of like “you're gonna get all these Christians to hate you!” You know, my conscience just all of a sudden, just started going at me. 

And anyway, I got up there and I just said to the people “I'm not not gonna sing Amazing Grace. I've got to sing a song that the Holy Spirit just gave me.”

So I sang this song: broken walls and it opens with this blood curdling chant. It's not something that just opens all nice namby-pamby. It's like: if you're gonna do it as a Christian you might as well hit them hard, right? 

I came out, and I hit the drum and did it the way I imagined it might have been done by a powerful singer of the longhouse or a powerful leader singer, like “Yahweh, hiyaa, hiyaa ya!” 

So I am singing this wail, that's been interpreted as a cry for hope, but a warrior's cry for change, a cry for the tragedy that has beset the people.

I realized, after all of this happened, that chant at the beginning was meant to be more mournful and soulful, and to cry out about the tragedy in something that was beyond English comprehension, but was more of a wailing. 

And I was with Paul Hugues—I don't know if you ever heard of him. He's this amazing psalmist guy who writes and really has studied music to great depths—he heard that and he interpreted that as the cry of the indigenous people for justice, when he heard that chant. 

So anyway, I sang the song and the song turns to English and says, “Come together. I'm pouring out a fresh love. See those around you through different eyes. I'm pouring out my love on all of you, my people, and by the heart of me, the Father, you will heal your land.” And then “let his love wrap around you. Let his arms wrap around you and true repentance fill your heart. Recognize the deeds of the days that have gone by, and you will know forgiveness from the people of this land.” 

And that was pretty dang bold! Like, it couldn't have been me right? You know it was less of me in that.

Chris: Yeah. I just want—like that story, man! I've heard the song. I've heard you sing the song so many times. And every time it does the same thing to me, even what you just did now every hair on my body is standing on end right now.

And I wanna go somewhere with this conversation, where I feel like you're leading us and Spirit is leading us. Because the story of what happened at the Sacred Assembly is in some ways kind of a launching point for this reconciliation ministry that you have been involved with for so many years.

We talk about worship and really, again like I said earlier, we’re talking about what's the nexus point of worship and justice? In that moment something happened in your heart. And I'm sure something happened in the hearts of the people who were in the room with you, just like it happens in my heart right now, and and every time I hear that song. I guess the question I have for you—as a leader and a trusted voice for the church in Canada and beyond—how can we shape our worship so that it orients our hearts toward justice and reconciliation? Like what can that look like for the church? 

Jonathan: I've had some visions of that over the last while. And you know it's another step that I'll have to take to really speak it out for people to be able to hear it. Because I wanna think this through and say the right thing. I'm in a position where I know that I'm gonna have to say it soon in a more of a public setting. And I believe that we've gotten ourselves into a box in worship. And I believe that God wants us to worship in a more freer situation. I guess I could say—I'll start off. I'll use this as a launching pad: so as I go out and I use the drum, there's a lot of places that I’ve gone into and for a long time I would get up, and I would try and explain the drum. I would make excuses for me bringing the drum into the church. I would, you know, not fearfully but hopefully explain why I'm using the drum in their church, right? And my wife, who has been with me for 35 years as of yesterday, she said to me about 10 years ago, “Johnny. When you play the drum things happen.” She said “You need to quit trying to make excuses about it.

Quit explaining about it, and just play it.”  She said, “when you go up and you play it, things happen. People sense that it's not an evil spirit. People sense that the Spirit of God is moving.” She said, “when you go up, just use it as the form of worship that God is giving you, and let people recognize the power that's in it.”

Yeah, and you know, it really struck me when she said that because she's a real warrior, and she's not a big warrior. She's like 110 pounds, but in the spirit, she's very powerful. And so she encouraged me to quit trying to make excuses, and to just do it. And I think that's where the drum could be part of the thing that helps to set the church free. Or not just the drum, but allowing Indigenous people of the world to begin to worship through their cultural expression.

And so, you know, so many times, I feel like a token. I go to a church and in order for the service to start, they have to do four songs that they've done 400 times, that they really have no connection to other than that they learn them. They didn't write them. They aren't coming from there. Maybe they are coming from their spirit because they've done them enough times.

But the fact is, these churches out there are doing music from these pre-made song books.

Okay, now, I'm getting passionate. 

Chris: No, come on. Come on!

Jonathan: These pre-made song books are there. And whatever mood you want to bring to the service, you just flip through the songbook and you go “oh,that's a good one. Let's do thatone today. And then you go back and you go “oh, that'll line up with that really good.” I know, because I did it.

I believe that the true psalmists of the church of Jesus Christ, the real church that loves Jesus—there should be fresh songs coming out of every stinking church that's out there! These worship leaders have to quit taking everybody else's music, and they need to write the stuff that God's given them. And that's gonna send a fresh wave across the body of Christ. 

So all I'm saying is as people who follow Jesus and listen to the voice of the Spirit. God wants to pour a fresh worship through every one of them. But they are so caught in the box that they aren't able to trust that the gift that is placed on them can be set free and bless the people! 

Chris: yeah, man. 

Jonathan: and I'm willing to help that to happen, but it means that maybe not so many people will embrace Broken Walls. But I don't care. I've reached a point where it's like I need to incite the people to listen and translate what the Holy Spirit has given them to their people. We’ve got so much boxed worship and it needs to be loosed and set free. And like I'm hoping that the things that I'm doing, instead of everybody learning my songs and playing my song so much, that it will inspire them to write their songs that approach the things that are important to what God’s doing within your community, and how he prepares you to reach the world. 

Cause really what's the end goal here? The end goal is for us to share the message of Christ. And if we share his love, and share his kingdom in a way where there's honesty. There's truth. And it's powerful. And I believe that these worship leaders all across are under-selling themselves. Oh, they're great musicians. They can play the guitar so good, and they can sing the high notes and their vocals blend really good. But the fact is, they need to be doing it by the Holy Spirit.

No, I'm not necessarily saying—I've seen the free-for-alls too, where they all just get in there, and we do it, and after a while I just get wore out by that, too. It needs to be people who are listening, receiving, bringing it to their worship teams and say, “here it is. This is what the Holy Spirit is giving me right now. Now let's do it.” And then they interpret it together with the gifts that God has placed in each one.

Imagine. Imagine! There’re so many gifted musicians in the body of Christ that are all playing the same thing all across North America. Imagine if they were all interpreting it the way the Holy Spirit is giving it to them. They are interpreting it through their gifts. I don't know how far off the main question I went!

Chris: No man! You are honestly—

Jonathan: I gave you guys something I haven't ever brought up.

This is the first time. God’s been laying this on my heart for a while now, and I gave it to you first.

Chris: I love it. And brother, if I may. An observation, and just something that kind of hit me right now—but I'm listening to you talk, and I'm thinking from the story you told of your background, you know the English and Scottish and Welsh and and the Mohawk and and all of it coming together—I’m like brother, you are a walking embodiment of reconciliation. And I like how you say you've been pulled through the knot. Like, you have been pulled through that knot and I think your voice is out ahead. 

I mentioned Kenny, Kenny Wallace, when we were talking. We talked about that when the prophet gets too far ahead of the crowd you know, then the prophets just lost, and the crowd is the crowd. Here's what I'm going to say in this moment: I'm thankful that you have such a loud voice, man. I am thankful because we can still hear you. And I think that's a great word for the church. That is an amazing word for the Church through this season of reconciliation.

You just mentioned, when we were talking before we actually started recording, you just got back from Kamloops. This is off the cuff, but I do want to ask it: for where we are right now in the reconciliation journey, in the healing journey, what role do you see music and arts playing in this season?

I know that's a different kind of question, but I just feel like you've got so much to say. I'd love to hear you talk about that for a minute.

Jonathan: So that's a good question. I believe that the word is restoration. I believe that the music—so I'm just releasing a new album called “The Call of the Drum.” And I believe that the drum is a symbol of the restoration of the Indigenous people because the drum represents First Nations people, represents Metis. Even if you go up into northern Canada you've got all of our different Indigenous heritages across our North, and into Alaska and down the States.

But the drum somehow seems to be one other way or another, one shape or form within those communities. And the drum was the instrument that Creator gave to us when He created us.

And you know a lot of people have gotten into this—I don't know. I don't know what the heck people are thinking that God placed native people, He placed the Indigenous people in North America and then He said, “See you later. I'm not having any more to do with you until I send the Europeans over here to bring Jesus to you. So you guys are Godless until we send them over.”  I mean. Do you think that God is that kind of God? I don't. I believe that he loves every one of us. He loved us all equally. And I believe that he placed his goodness in North America, just like he placed his goodness in Europe and in the other places of the world and no matter where he placed his goodness, there was still evil that was there, too, that had to be fought. 

So over in Europe they got the guillotine. They got the stretch racks, they got burning at the stake. They got all of these things. So how can a people group come and say—that have that behind them—that they are representing something any different in humanity? Like I mean our native people. You know we were “pagans.” We were “heathens” is all that we got. And we would do things that were inhuman and all those things. But so did they. 

My whole point is this: we weren't Godless. We were just pre-Jesus. Like the Old Testament, we were pre-Jesus; we didn't have Jesus, but we needed Jesus. But you know there were prophets that came to our people before the coming of the white man. There were prophets that came to our people and talked about these men that were coming with leaves bound together. And inside those leaves that was going to be truth that was going to come to our people. 

And so, as the prophets went out and told these stories, our people began to follow these prophets and look for this truth that was coming. And in the meantime—like within my people group, the religion is called the longhouse, and there are within the longhouse the people of the good mind and the people of the bad mind. And you choose. The people who will follow the good mind, and they will stick to the good mind, they were the ones who sought after God, sought after things in the right way, who did things with honor and cared for their families, and cared for the community.

Then you had the people of the dark mind who were self-serving, and greedy, and made curses and did music that was “I’m on the highway to hell.” You know? I'm just saying, that was the two sides. In Europe, there was the two sides. In South America, in Asia there's the two sides, because there's good and there's bad everywhere.

We were pre-Jesus. And so what we had to have was the discovery of who Jesus really was. And that's where we're at now. And I believe that God has given us—he's restoring us.

And the drum is a part of the wonderful way that God is calling his Indigenous people back. And he's allowing Jesus to be lifted up on the drum. And he's allowing those songs to go out and our people are going. They're reflecting again. 

Because for 300 or more years, we've been told you have to culturally convert in order to have Jesus. And now after Kamloops, especially after Kamloops, we're seeing that being a Christian wasn't necessarily the thing that set people free. It was honoring the love and the power of Jesus that sets people free. It's living in the way that Jesus died for that sets people free.

It's not getting caught up in religion. 

And so I believe that as we hear the drum, and we hear the songs come from the heart, and we see native people question “you mean we aren't evil, inherently evil? And you don't have to give up being Cree, Anishinaabe? We don't have to give up being Lakota, Dakota or Stolo, or whatever we are? We don't have to not be who we are created to be?”

I know I'm redundant on that. But the fact is, native people—so this one friend of mine, he pastors a church up in the North, an Anishinaabe church. And one night he was in bed, and he was wrestling with his message. And the Holy Spirit told him to ask the people—and it was a message about identity, who they were in Jesus—and he said, “ask how many of you are ashamed to be Anishinaabe or Ojibwe? 

And so he went up. There were 85 people in the church. He asked them “how many of you are ashamed to be Ojibwe?” And they all raise their hands. That's the effect the church has had on Indigenous people. It says “you have to convert to my culture in order to have my Jesus.” That's what our people have had to put up with.

And now we're in a position where Canada is taking a second look at how they have hid us, been ashamed of us, been embarrassed by us, and only brought us out during times of tokenism like at the beginning of the Olympics. They would bring our native dancers out, because we're so beautiful, right? All the feathers and the regalia. We come out dancing, dancing and going down a thing. And them really lifting that up, “oh, look at our beautiful indigenous people.”  And then you don't hear any more about them. They did their part. They were the token of them and their place in the land. That's it. That's all they got. They didn't hear about what those people go through.

So now Canada is in a place where it can no longer use us as their tokens, because they've used us. They've abused us. Now they've got to make recompense for what's taken place.

And so my father, right before he died, he said, “Jonathan, you've got to go to the white man, and you've got to tell him what he's done to our people so he can be forgiven.” He said, “I have fear for what's gonna happen to him if he doesn't deal with it and be forgiven.” And he said, “go to our people and tell them Jesus was not a white guy, that he was a tribal man; that Jesus died for them, and that He died to set them free.”

And of course, Revelation 5:9—sing a new song for Jesus died for every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. That's the scripture I use when I go to my people. And I say “you know, we’ve got a quit calling Jesus the white man's God. Because our Creator [soon gwaye dee so] sent him down, so that he could die, so that he could set us free and embrace us and love us all. Because the beauty of God's glory is seen in our diversity, not in our conformity.”

Chris: Hmm. Aw, brother, if I may: thank you. It's been an honor to have you, and I think we all agree as we're listening to your words, and as you have really just shared your heart with us, that we all want to follow Jesus, as you have presented him to us today. We're honored to have you, my friend, and we are honored to share one of your songs. A song that's called “I'm His Son” as we end our episode.  Jonathan. Thank you so much for joining us today, and God bless you!

Jonathan: Thank you, Chris, Megan, and Victoria, you guys are awesome. I'm hoping that this helps in what you're doing moving forward and looking forward to hearing more from you guys.

Chris: Thank you.

Jonathan: ok, God bless.