Being Asked About One Moment

In this episode Andrew Reinstra joins us to talk about what it's like to reconcile his experiences his birth and adoptive families. We get into the questions *not* to ask an adopted person. If you've wanted to think about the intersection of justice and adoption this is the episode for you.

The following is a transcript of Season 6 Episode 6 of the Do Justice podcast.  It has been lightly edited for clarity.  Listen and subscribe on your favourite listening app.  

Chris: Well, hey friends and welcome back to Do Justice. We're continuing our conversation with the theme of reconciliation. Part of our conviction for this season and going in this direction is: we believe that God is a God who reconciles. He reconciles us to Himself through Christ. God is a reconciling God in the world. God is in the business of reconciliation and a lot of the rifts and a lot of the brokenness in our world need to be bridged and need to be healed and we believe that we serve a God who can do that. So it's exciting to continue this conversation, this theme. Today I'm joined by Andrew Reinstra. Welcome, Andrew. Thanks for joining us, man.

Andrew: Thanks so much for having me. It’s good to be here.

Chris: It's so good. You and I have worked together with World Renew. You're a graduate of Calvin University. Part of your story, though – the interesting part of the story that we want to dive into – is that you're adopted as an infant in Costa Rica by Dutch-American missionaries. You're brought to Michigan at the age of ten. In your bio, you shared with us that you're passionate about the exploration of identity, empowerment, and building of community for adopted people living in Michigan. Recently, in 2017, you founded the group West Michigan Adopted People. That group provides a safe and positive community for adult adoptees to discuss their collective journey, mitigate feelings of otherness, and just share in the experience. More recently you joined a club that I'm in. You're in the girl-dad club. Your daughter is two years old. Two years and a couple of months is that it?

Andrew: Yeah, birthday in July.

Chris: Yeah, awesome club to be a part of. I love it. I know you love it. I get to see, like I said, we've worked together for a while. But you're in Michigan, I'm in Ontario and I get to see what's going on in your life through Facebook and it's awesome. It's awesome – nothing quite like it. So again, thanks for joining us. Let's dive in, man. Andrew, I'm sure in a lot of the conversations that you've had around adoption and being part of the adoption group and starting that… I'm sure that a lot of people have questions. Like, what's it like to be adopted? So we're wondering: what's the most common question that you're asked?

Andrew: That's a good question. The question I get the most is how old were you? And that's something I've been thinking on since you asked me earlier. Before, we had this conversation about what do you get asked: it's how old you are. And to me, that ties into this feeling of: are they asking out of genuine interest? Or, are folks approaching this with a misconception or an idea of: the older you are, the more you've gone through or the more it's going to impact who you are? I actually had dinner once with some older folks. Towards the end of the dinner, I'm wrapping up or having to start a meeting – this was actually a work meeting. So things have gone well, great conversation, and the gentleman had heard my story, a bit of my story, being adopted and such. And he looks at me and he goes, “So, you're adopted, but you don't act crazy. You don't look crazy.” And I was just really taken aback by that. I was like, oh, whoa, is that something that people approach my story with? When people ask “How old were you?”, or “Where were you from?”, or “Were you adopted with siblings?”, or “Have you met your parents?” is there this mindset of: “Hey, I'm genuinely interested. Oh, you know, we're chatting Chris and you like to play the guitar. Let's talk about that.” Or is it like, “Hey, I'm trying to gauge: is this person someone I feel comfortable around?” What are they bringing to the story when they're asking me that question of how old were you? 

And I also feel it's tough for me because once adoption is mentioned, for some people it's a very interesting topic and it can make me feel a little pigeonholed in presenting who I am. All of a sudden now I'm forced to talk about traumas I've experienced or this crazy and beautiful story that I've lived. And I'm okay doing that, but it's also something that at times I wish I could kind of hide, so there's that dance of that. So a simple question like, “How old were you?”, the older I get and the more I have experienced responses to what I say or engagements when it comes to adoption conversation, the more I question that question. 

Chris: I want to get into the story. I want to hear a bit about your story. Fill in those blanks for us. But I think I'm asking from… I want to know the whole person. I met you through work. I think you and I kind of hit it off. There was a similar sense of humor, we both flow in the gift of sarcasm a little bit. Can you share a bit of your story with us?

Andrew: Yeah, and Chris, I mean, that's an interesting point. Just backing up a little bit, with something like adoption, with something that's hard and beautiful in your life, you want to be seen and you don't want to be seen. It's this weird dance and it can lead to a lot of… I don't want to say tricky, but when it comes to engaging with people, there can be days where I'm waiting for someone to talk to me about my adoption story and there's days where it's, like, man another person asking me this. So it's complicated for outside people who haven’t necessarily walked that road of adoption or felt an experience of being a part of an outside culture or whatnot.

Chris: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, it can be this tricky response. “Hey, today he was cool with it” or “That person I met was cool with talking about that, while this other person was really offended and so I don't know.” There's no answer that can be wrapped up in a nice bow, but I just know that because it's such a – like I said – it's a beautiful thing, but there's so many facets to it. It can become all over the place. So simple questions can lead to beautiful conversation and great relationships, but they can also be something that makes someone in the room feel othered.

Chris: No, I get that. Yeah, I get that. I think Andrew, before we hear your story, maybe a better question is what do you wish people would ask?

Andrew: Oh, that's a good question. The first thing I think of is audience. Outside of being adopted, I'm also a person of color and I'm living in a community that… it's West Michigan, so predominantly Dutch. I moved to an area where there are more Latinos, but even among the Latino people, I'm kind of an obscure group. My birth father was indigenous; Mosquito Indian from an area of Nicaragua. My birth mother was from Costa Rica. And I know some Nicaraguans and they called me a walking controversy because there's a huge issue of Indigenous Nicaraguans coming to Costa Rica and doing this undocumentedly. That's how my birth dad did it. It's caused a lot of tension and trauma and situations like that. So I've been called a walking controversy. 

So, for, me, I feel like in a lot of ways it's audience. There's times where I put myself on a platform and I'm open to any question. Ask away. What is it like being Hispanic/Latino in this environment? How's your faith impacted you? What were some terrible things that happened throughout your childhood relating to adoption? What are some beautiful things? I'm an open book. So I think of those situations, but also, sometimes I'm just trying to live. When I was young, I always said I just wanted to feel normal. I want it to fit in. I knew something was off. It's like I wanted to put my head down and just kind of… why do I stick out? For so long I just wanted to be normal. 

So, I don't always want someone to ask me a question. I feel like it's a dance. It's this dance of getting to know people. It's a dance of where I'm at in that point of maybe my day or my week or my experience as an adopted person. Sometimes I'm reeling off traumatic things that just happened. I'm doing this podcast today, but who's to say last week I didn't have a really upsetting situation with my adoption story, or my biological family, or how someone responded to something related to adoption in my life. So it's not always about the person coming to you and saying the right thing or the wrong thing, it's about this complicated... I don't know, I’d almost call it a salad or something like that. We're humans and as we interact we’re bringing different ingredients to it. And sometimes things just click and sometimes they don't. 

So Chris I'm sorry I don't have this answer of, “I wish people would ask this.” For the adopted people in the audience or the people… I think there's lots of different groups of folks who can feel like they're othered. In West Michigan Adopted People we talk about mitigating feelings of otherness, for people who are feeling othered. There's a lot of work we can do and we need to do in recognizing where we're at in our space, how we're going to relate to people, and how we want to come off to people. Because we are put in the spotlight sometimes. I hope that answers your question in a weird, roundabout way. 

For me, there have been more experiences where people have said the wrong thing than people have asked me the right thing. I've had more experiences where people have asked the wrong thing than the right thing. And made me feel more othered. It's not to say I'm this sensitive person. It's the whole, I can't believe you said that. Oh, I can't believe you said that. Asking me how am I not so crazy or how has adoption impacted your life when we're just having a meeting around work. That isn't the right way to approach it. But I’ve put myself in very vulnerable situations. I've sat in rooms with 5 or 6 pairs of parents of adopted children and been like, “Ask away” and shared what I can from my story. But yeah, it's complicated stuff. 

Chris: It is and it sounds complicated. And I'm not saying that in a cheeky way, I'm saying that like: here's what I take away from that. So for me as someone who wasn't adopted but maybe I do have questions, maybe it's less about the questions I ask and more about how I can receive what's being offered. What are you offering? How can I approach your story and approach it, approach you open-handedly and be like, “I'm ready to receive, I'm ready to interact.” You know what I mean? Rather than this is the right question you should ask, it's more about a posture of being open and being willing to receive what someone has capacity to offer in that moment. Does that does that kind of vibe?

Andrew: Yeah, I 100% agree and I think it's about relationship building too. I think that people put this idea in their minds that relationship building is this really long, deep thing when really it can just be like you said: a posture, how are you presenting yourself? I used to call it the sniff test. I went to Calvin College – or now it's called Calvin University – and I was like, there's the sniff test that people can do when you're on campus walking around as to: does your story fit in with my story; do we line up? It was interesting for me, for example, as a person of color and being Latino, because around other Latinos I don't pass the sniff test, because my story has all these facts to it where now I'm more Dutch. I don't speak Spanish all the way. My mom doesn't make tamales and you know, etc, etc. So I look like one of them. I look like this guy from Central America, but you start talking to me and I'd miserably fail this sniff test because my last name is Reinstra.

Chris: Right, right.

Andrew: Again, it's like you're saying, this posture of you're getting to know somebody and I think fully bringing yourself to that conversation too. You know, it shouldn't be a sniff test, Chris. You shouldn't be going to people like, “Hey, do we match up? Are we compatible? Are we not compatible?” Am – here's another piece. “Am I gonna collect you for my people of all I know interesting people.” Like, “Hey, I know a guy who is adopted” and that makes me seem interesting and unique because I can kind of… what do you call it? I don't know, just feel like I'm experiencing this whole chapter of this person's life or do I see this person as who this person is and I'm sharing my life, they're sharing their life and it's a beautiful thing. Chris, you have an interracial marriage correct?

Chris: Yeah, I am in an interracial marriage. I'm familiar with the look. You know what I'm saying? 

Andrew: Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. As people who have stories that don't always match up with this norm that's projected out there, you just generally feel when people come to you with the right posture, the right intent versus having something else going on in their mind, that baseline of is this guy crazy or not?

Chris: I want to go deeper with this, but, best tamales you've ever had. Go.

Andrew: Actually, it's kind of cheating. It's called nacatamales. It was made in Honduras. So I work for World Renew, which is the development disaster arm of the Christian Reformed Church. And in 2020, I took a group to Honduras. We were in a community called Nueva Suyapa, and we had a chance as a group to make nacatamales which is basically just larger tamales. Don't butcher me again. Inside I'm Dutch; outside I'm Latino. I don’t know the difference, but I’m sure there’s a huge difference. But to me, they were just large tamales and they were amazing. It was so amazing too to make those alongside the community. We got to sit there and mix together the corn paste and the meat. It was wonderful. 

Chris: Alright, I'm putting it on the list. I'm putting it on the list.

Andrew: Yeah, Nueva Suyapa.

Chris: Yeah. Okay, it's on the list. Thanks. 

Andrew: You got it.

Chris: There's some more stuff I want to get to from what you said earlier, but could you give us the 5-minute overview; tell us your story. I know that's hard to do, but just to to give context to our listeners.

Andrew: Yeah, so some context. I think that adoption stories are interesting because I read somewhere once that it's constantly bringing us back to infancy. Like, think of a moment in your life where you're being constantly asked about this moment. I was abandoned. I was 6 months old when I was adopted, but I was 3 months old when I was abandoned by my birth family. They brought me to an orphanage along with my brother and my sister and actually another sister. There were 4 of us that were given up for adoption. My birth mom had groupings of children. She had one group with one man, another group that included me, another group afterwards. 

And it is interesting to be asked, “What's your story?” because it's like me always bringing up with somebody, “Hey, what hospital were you born with?” and, “Oh, Zealand Hospital, great. What floor? What…” It's like this moment that's so far away and so long ago. But it has these ripples through my story and I'm always brought to that moment. It's like a part of me is always held at this infant age because of other people holding me there. I have to talk about, “Hey, I was 6 months old. I was brought here. Wah-da-da-da.”

That number – 6 months – is incredibly special to me. When my daughter turned 6 months, we brought her to the Dominican Republic and spent a week as a family just being a family because I'm just hyper-aware of that 6 months. That's when I found my family. 

So, my parents – my biological parents–  are from, like I mentioned, my birth dad was from the Mosquito Indian tribe in Blue Fields, Nicaragua. He came to Costa Rica to find work. He was undocumented and had a lot of issues getting kicked out of the country. He was a dude who, from what we know, had a lot of very serious problems and did a lot of very bad things. I've learned historically, he was one of the people affected by the war that took place in Nicaragua. That area – Blue Fields – was heavily recruited for soldiers to go and fight. So, a lot of the men there suffer with serious alcohol issues and the trauma that comes with war. He met my birth mom when she was very young. They began having children. They had us four. They didn't speak the same language. He didn't speak Spanish. 

A lot of this, sorry Chris to back up… Until I was like 28, I thought I was an alien. How they talk about the stork bringing a baby to parents, that's kind of how adoption felt for me. Like, “Oh, yeah, that makes sense. That story makes sense.” Because you just kind of appeared with this group. You don't know where you came from. You don’t know anything about your biological family. You just sort of appear on someone's doorstep and they take care of you. I didn't know any of this until I was 28. When I turned 28 years old, I really went on this journey of traveling to where my birth family – my birth dad and my birth mom – were from; researching them, meeting people who knew them, and all these stories came out and this whole life came out. But until then,  I thought I fell out of a plane or the stork just brought me to my adoptive parents. And as I learn more about their lives… my birth mom did not speak the same language as my birth dad so you can say, “What kind of relationship is that?” It's just one of having children and trying to survive. There was abuse in our home. There's a lot of just terrible things and we were given up to the orphanage, given up for adoption. 

My parents, so I refer to my adoptive parents as my parents. A lot of people… another wrong question, what people will say is, “Oh, who are your real parents?” Things like that. “Do you miss your real parents? Have you met your real mom? Have you met your real dad?” I don't like that question. Or, another terrible question people ask is, “Do your parents have any real children or any children of their own?” I don't get that wording. Do they have any children of their own? So then what does that make me? So those are some other wrong questions. 

Going back to that question that you asked earlier, my parents were young. They got married young. God put it in their heart to be missionaries. They traveled to Central America and as part of their ministry they wanted to really enter into the community in a more intimate way and they viewed adopting children — they saw a lot of children in need as part of that. Why bring kids into this world when we're in a community where there are so many kids who have needs? So they began the adoption process. I hear it was fairly cheap. I think I was worth like $150 back then, or $125.

Sometimes I laugh about that and sometimes I get really ticked off when people mention that. My dad has said it sometimes and I laugh; my dad has said it other times and I'm mad. So, that's that dance again of where I'm at emotionally, right? Sometimes you can laugh at your trauma and sometimes you're like, “Hey man, that's too far.” So, yeah, I think I was, I was worth about $125 bucks. It was sort of a buy-two-get-one-free deal. I'm kind of kidding, but like… My parents met my brother and my sister first, and then the orphanage brought me out after my parents had already bonded with my brother and my sister. They said, “Hey, actually, there's a third one. Would you be interested in adopting him?” And at that point, there, I was a very cute little baby. If you've ever seen my daughter, you can see why. Well, my wife is also very cute. So…

Chris: You gotta say it, man.

Andrew: Yes. Oh yeah, no. And so they adopted all 3 of us. They wanted to adopt the fourth sister who was given up. But, one of the things that would happen is my birth parents would go and party. They would go drinking and whatnot and just leave us in the home. Neighbors would hear us screaming for help and starving. So, different neighbors would help us and one family helped our other sister and would take her in. When she was put up for adoption, they ended up adopting her. 

So flash forward, I lived my life in Costa Rica to some extent with my brother and my sister. Didn't know how my life… did a lot of minimizing of my story because as I mentioned before I just wanted to fit in. I don't remember if you knew these old Sunny D commercials where there was a bottle of Sunny D and they said the sun is inside and was always trying to burst out the cap. The bottle was jumping around the screen and bright light was coming out. I always felt that I had… I look back at my life and troubles I've had. I was angry, a teen, you know, things like that. It was that there’s something inside me that needed to get out, and I had buried it deep to try to just survive. Like the Sunny D commercial that sunlight burst out, and so did my adoption story and those feelings. 

I actually remember them culminating. It was when I worked at World Renew. I think I had just started. You know, I left college. In college, I had done some exploration of my faith. Some interest in my adoption story, but not really. A lot of that disinterest in my adoption story was because I didn't want to hurt my parents. I felt like, hey, I have a good life. I love my parents; searching for this feels like a betrayal of them. Another piece is I just didn't put the pieces together. I had these feelings, but I didn't know what to do with them. I didn't know what they were or where they were coming from. I remember it all culminating when I worked at World Renew. I started my job there, and I remember I went to Myer and I was being followed around by this staff person who eventually followed me to a parking lot and accused me of stealing. I interacted with the situation. I showed him my receipt. I didn't steal. I walked away and I just remember feeling so angry, so, so angry and also hurt. And it's just this combination of like, I'm an outsider. I'm an outsider. I'm an outsider, whether it's my race, whether it's my adoption story, etc. I just remember feeling so angry and I remember sitting down and I was like I cannot be this angry. I don't want to live like this. I don't want to be this angry person. And so I actually went and I found a Bible that they had in one of the old rooms there and I began reading through it. I found all these verses about what God says about us, about our identity. And to me that had this very calming effect on that rage. And it turned into: “Okay. What do I do? How do I start working on this? How do I work through this?” It just so happened at that same time my sister was turning 30 and she wanted to explore our adoption story, so we wound up finding some documents on our birth family. We got in contact with them using Facebook. Social media is incredible. And yeah, did some more conversations for a lot of years with them. Got to know them just a little bit. It's not a clean-cut situation with them. They're still living in poverty with a lot of psychosocial issues and addiction issues. I had the opportunity to go meet my birth mother and all these siblings that I have. Because – I mentioned she had different groupings of children – I have half-siblings, a lot of half-siblings. I was able to meet quite a few of them on my honeymoon. My wife and I traveled down to Costa Rica on our honeymoon and we spent half a day with them. We were able to get to know their story a little bit more, hear things from their side of events, pray together, eat together, and then I took off. And we've had engagement ever since. Trying to help them help themselves has been an initiative of mine, but it's tricky. Anyways, that's a little bit of my story.

Chris: No, it's good. I wanna launch off of something that you said. Because we want to talk about reconciliation and you started going there. But what has it been like to reconcile your life – your adoptive parents or your parents – with the life maybe that you may have lived with your biological parents? Have you had to journey to that peace? And what has that felt or looked like for you? 

Andrew: Yeah, so I feel a lot of different things when it comes to that word reconciliation and adoption stories. Initially, I feel that it's a trauma, so there's not really… You can come to some extent to peace with it. And to some extent reconciling these relationships. But in reality, it's a very horrible thing that happened. All those years ago, 34 years ago, I was brought into this situation where people could not take care of me and I was given up. And I have seen so much beauty of God in my life piecing my story together into this beautiful journey where, yes, there's been lows, but I have been able to survive and thrive and I think most importantly have a relationship with God. 

But, to say this is like that scene at the end of Grease where we're in the car and flying into the sky and everyone's just singing a doo-wop song as we take off – it doesn't feel like that. I think a lot of the reconciliation has been internal where it's moving through, like I said, that point of anger and rage at being othered, at being out of place, at the fact that my story feels broken. To: okay, I have to just work through this internally. It's okay for me to sit with these feelings, but it's not okay for me to lash out and to make things worse for myself or people around me because I went through this. When it comes to trauma, when it comes to abandonment, it's very easy to become cyclical – addiction, things like that. So for me, a lot of the reconciliation has been internal. This is something that happened to me, but a lot of it is in my hands now at this point. I'm 34, right? Like I mentioned, it's bringing me back to these moments a lot, years and years and years ago. But, yeah, I feel like a lot of this reconciliation has been internal. 

I can share a memory and experience that I felt was very beautiful for me. A while back I appeared on – actually, it might have been your wife's podcast: See Hear Love. But, I shared my adoption story. I shared a lot of things that I thought. I found out later, on my birthday, my dad gave me this present. I went into the box and I looked and it was this broken pot that had been glued together. Now during that podcast – I believe it was that one – I had talked about how I really struggled with feeling like I was this broken story. I had love for the community in Blue Fields that I had visited and learning about that culture there. I had love for the people in Costa Rica and the story of – like you said – what could have been. I had love for my life in Michigan and my family and love there. And I just felt this great happiness, but then also this deep sorrow. I feel broken. I remember I'd actually experienced all that while I was on a plane and I had this moment where I had a mental image of God as this great potter putting me back together, taking these crazy stories that shouldn't fit and piecing them together and blessing me through them. Sometimes being an outsider has been a curse, but mostly it's been a blessing. And I told that story and how I felt about that, and on my birthday I look in the box and there's this pot that's put back together and my dad gave that to me. And to me, that was one of the most important gifts I've ever got because it meant my dad heard me. And I think hearing beyond just words. He saw my heart. He heard my story and he went out and did that for me. He got that broken pot and I feel like as an adopted person – you've asked the question, what do people ask you? Wha-da-da-da-da? It can feel so surfacey. People want to hear this story. But to be involved with it to the point where you're listening to me on this podcast, you're understanding what I'm saying, you're celebrating the beauty and you're giving me this. It was very, very impactful and it did a lot for the journey that I've had with my dad. 

My dad has been a big advocate for adoption; engaging in my story, meeting my birth family, etc. He helps me translate things. He helped me form the adopted people's group. We started out of the basement at Eastern Avenue, CRC, where he's a pastor. And that, to me, has been so important. I feel like a lot of time adults adopt little children, but they forget that you're adopting an adult as well. You're adopting an old man. You're adopting a middle schooler. You’re adopting a teenager. I'm not just this cute baby and my dad has really stepped into that like, “Hey, let's walk through this together.” He doesn't feel threatened. He doesn't run away when I talk about things that are hard for me and that, to me, has been the most important relationship when it comes to my adoption story. And I don't expect that from everybody. I don't need that from everybody. But with my dad that's something that… all of this it wouldn't have been possible; all my healing wouldn’t have been possible without him.

Chris: Beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful, man. So much to digest in what you just shared. Andrew, as we wrap up our time together, let's talk about justice. This is the Do Justice podcast. And folks who tune in are obviously listening to hear the answers and the topics and the discussion around the justice lens. So I guess the question for you is: what do you think about adoption, about your story from a justice lens?

Andrew: I'm going to start with the context of my story. I mentioned the effect that the war in Nicaragua had on my birthdad: him fleeing the country, being used in the war, ending up in Costa Rica, his community being destabilized, and him needing to find work as an undocumented person in Costa Rica. So, just a reminder that our actions in the United States had an impact on that war. And there's consequences, right? It's like the butterfly flaps its wings and causes a hurricane on the other side of the planet. So just a reminder that when it comes to how you advocate and how you vote – I mean especially thinking of how climate is affecting the world right now – it's going to affect and create more stories of people like me, where their families are disrupted, where their linear story is broken. 

And, while I do believe that God is out there restoring and redeeming stories all the time just like mine, let's try and keep the story a little bit more simple. Let's not throw people into these traumatic situations as a nation, as individuals, as families. Let's try and help others through our ability to advocate to, keep peace in different parts of the world because you never know what will happen down the road. I also feel, kind of tied to that, if you're considering adoption, especially international adoption, my request would be to think about ways to try and keep the family together. There's obviously individual stories where folks need to be adopted and moved to a new context and new home, but those communities are still there. I was adopted out of a family of – I don't know how many people are left there. Ten? What does saving me do – out of that situation and those hardships – when you're not necessarily reflecting on how do you help that community? What can you do to help people who are in that situation? It is tricky but consider supporting nonprofits that work in remote… so for my parents, it's consider working like they did in Costa Rica. Work with the poor, work with people to try and change their story so they don't have to give up their kids, so they can fight addictions, so that they can have a healthy marriage. I think that's a piece of the story that we tend to kind of gloss over. I feel like, when it comes to adoption, I've seen this love for the children and disdain for the parents. Let's save the child and let's forget the parents because they deserve what's happening to them or they're bad people. But my heart goes out to those communities where they're losing their children, their next generation. It’s no easy thing. So justice lens: I think we need to work towards that. Keep families together, help the family unit, whether directly the community or what not.

I think another – and this is an area that I'm terrible at – but I do know in the United States there are groups that are working towards the rights of adopted people. I can share a link later, but I've connected with some folks here in West Michigan even who are advocates for various rights for adopted people. Now, this is an area I wish I knew more about, but I do know that there's folks who struggle with getting certain releases of documents or certain information that's as basic as knowing their health history, things like that. There's a lot of folks trying to advocate for that. So I've encouraged people to support folks who are doing that. Yeah, that's what I got when it comes to justice, Chris.

Chris: Andrew, thanks so much for being with us today, honestly, offering your time. We appreciate it and I know our listeners do as well. Our guest today was Andrew Reinstra. Thanks so much for being here, man. We appreciate you.

Andrew: Thanks for having me. I appreciate being here.